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	<title>Comments on: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B</title>
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	<link>http://improvingsoftware.com/2009/05/19/programmers-before-you-turn-40-get-a-plan-b/</link>
	<description>Upgrading the software development process one reader at a time.</description>
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		<title>By: Jian</title>
		<link>http://improvingsoftware.com/2009/05/19/programmers-before-you-turn-40-get-a-plan-b/#comment-1192</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Nov 2011 22:16:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improvingsoftware.com/?p=661#comment-1192</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Boy this is a long page with so many comments. I read through ALL of the comments and also wondering, after 2 years, any update in light of the current software/web industry?

I think despite of the economy being weak, still the tech industry is doing very well due to the explosive growth of mobile and social networks. So I wonder older programmers could still survive with many hiring opportunities available these days.

As for the career path, it seems to me consulting is not that easy, as I&#039;ve tried and haven&#039;t been successful. The biggest problem is that you can&#039;t just make a living out of it with consistent revenue stream. 

So, short of being a manager in a stable company, I think the best, although the hardest, is to work for yourself. It is a hard nut to crack, but I guess once you&#039;ve done it, sky is the limit.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Boy this is a long page with so many comments. I read through ALL of the comments and also wondering, after 2 years, any update in light of the current software/web industry?</p>
<p>I think despite of the economy being weak, still the tech industry is doing very well due to the explosive growth of mobile and social networks. So I wonder older programmers could still survive with many hiring opportunities available these days.</p>
<p>As for the career path, it seems to me consulting is not that easy, as I&#8217;ve tried and haven&#8217;t been successful. The biggest problem is that you can&#8217;t just make a living out of it with consistent revenue stream. </p>
<p>So, short of being a manager in a stable company, I think the best, although the hardest, is to work for yourself. It is a hard nut to crack, but I guess once you&#8217;ve done it, sky is the limit.</p>
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		<title>By: Marc Colten</title>
		<link>http://improvingsoftware.com/2009/05/19/programmers-before-you-turn-40-get-a-plan-b/#comment-1116</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Marc Colten]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Aug 2011 16:12:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improvingsoftware.com/?p=661#comment-1116</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am 62 and I never lost my enthusiasm for programming.  I don&#039;t have a CS degree (did they have those in 1971?) but I taught myself everything from Fortran, to Ramis, to Unix scripting, to MS Access and VBA.

I took early retirement at 48 (which I still think was a big mistake) and planned to do contracting after that.  Six months after my retirement I was sitting across from a much younger recruiter at an agency and she said  &quot;I don&#039;t know  ... you haven&#039;t worked for a while.&quot;  SIX MONTHS??   I know of people who were in comas longer than that who got their old jobs back.  Now that I&#039;m trying to re-enter the job market people talk to me like my last job was piloting a riverboat on the Mississippi.  

I still think experience in a wide range of languages and platforms should count for something, but apparently I&#039;m wrong.  Bitter?  Oh, a tad.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am 62 and I never lost my enthusiasm for programming.  I don&#8217;t have a CS degree (did they have those in 1971?) but I taught myself everything from Fortran, to Ramis, to Unix scripting, to MS Access and VBA.</p>
<p>I took early retirement at 48 (which I still think was a big mistake) and planned to do contracting after that.  Six months after my retirement I was sitting across from a much younger recruiter at an agency and she said  &#8220;I don&#8217;t know  &#8230; you haven&#8217;t worked for a while.&#8221;  SIX MONTHS??   I know of people who were in comas longer than that who got their old jobs back.  Now that I&#8217;m trying to re-enter the job market people talk to me like my last job was piloting a riverboat on the Mississippi.  </p>
<p>I still think experience in a wide range of languages and platforms should count for something, but apparently I&#8217;m wrong.  Bitter?  Oh, a tad.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Taylor Coates</title>
		<link>http://improvingsoftware.com/2009/05/19/programmers-before-you-turn-40-get-a-plan-b/#comment-1022</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter Taylor Coates]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Apr 2011 19:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improvingsoftware.com/?p=661#comment-1022</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John: What I want to know is what will you do when this blog thread turns 40? It&#039;s a fascinating insight into what my colleagues think about their careers.  

I&#039;ve gotten considerably older since I first commented on this thread; I&#039;m almost 57 now, and I&#039;m much happier in my work than I was two years ago. The biggest reason is that  I shifted from a series of high-pressure startups to a more laid-back giant mega media company.

Six months into this job, I came up with a novel keyword-search algorithm that&#039;s since been embodied as real software (by an offshore team) and looks like it&#039;s found a second application here as well. This algorithm derives from an essay by Jon Bentley that I first read in the late 1980&#039;s combined with an idea I had in the 1990&#039;s, as a grad student. Both ideas, in their original form, applied to problems that no longer exist, but the synthesis is up-to-the-minute. 

None of my younger colleagues (who are smart people) had previously heard of the principles, or had ever had any reason to think about the problems that motivated them back in the day, primarily because they were all in elementary school then.

I can testify that hard-core API-wrangling tends to be a young person&#039;s game, but depth of experience is an advantage in algorithms, and it makes up for substantial rot in the synapses.  The balance changes.  I wouldn&#039;t want to try to compete with these boys and girls pulling all nighters, but there are plenty of cases where experience trumps youthful energy.   Older programmers and engineers have to play to their strengths, just like older anybody.  

So I both agree and disagree with the basic premise. It&#039;s very specific. Some skills have a shelf life and some don&#039;t in all areas of life. You have to move not only with the changes in the evolving industry, but with the changes in the evolving you. Plan B can still be programming, but you have to be as into it as you were back when you started plan A. BTW, programming (as one of the other commentators also mentioned) was more like plan D for me already. That makes this round something like E. But since I can&#039;t even keep my age straight (see previous comments) don&#039;t expect me to enumerate the plans consistently.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John: What I want to know is what will you do when this blog thread turns 40? It&#8217;s a fascinating insight into what my colleagues think about their careers.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve gotten considerably older since I first commented on this thread; I&#8217;m almost 57 now, and I&#8217;m much happier in my work than I was two years ago. The biggest reason is that  I shifted from a series of high-pressure startups to a more laid-back giant mega media company.</p>
<p>Six months into this job, I came up with a novel keyword-search algorithm that&#8217;s since been embodied as real software (by an offshore team) and looks like it&#8217;s found a second application here as well. This algorithm derives from an essay by Jon Bentley that I first read in the late 1980&#8242;s combined with an idea I had in the 1990&#8242;s, as a grad student. Both ideas, in their original form, applied to problems that no longer exist, but the synthesis is up-to-the-minute. </p>
<p>None of my younger colleagues (who are smart people) had previously heard of the principles, or had ever had any reason to think about the problems that motivated them back in the day, primarily because they were all in elementary school then.</p>
<p>I can testify that hard-core API-wrangling tends to be a young person&#8217;s game, but depth of experience is an advantage in algorithms, and it makes up for substantial rot in the synapses.  The balance changes.  I wouldn&#8217;t want to try to compete with these boys and girls pulling all nighters, but there are plenty of cases where experience trumps youthful energy.   Older programmers and engineers have to play to their strengths, just like older anybody.  </p>
<p>So I both agree and disagree with the basic premise. It&#8217;s very specific. Some skills have a shelf life and some don&#8217;t in all areas of life. You have to move not only with the changes in the evolving industry, but with the changes in the evolving you. Plan B can still be programming, but you have to be as into it as you were back when you started plan A. BTW, programming (as one of the other commentators also mentioned) was more like plan D for me already. That makes this round something like E. But since I can&#8217;t even keep my age straight (see previous comments) don&#8217;t expect me to enumerate the plans consistently.</p>
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		<title>By: johnfx</title>
		<link>http://improvingsoftware.com/2009/05/19/programmers-before-you-turn-40-get-a-plan-b/#comment-1020</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[johnfx]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Apr 2011 21:29:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improvingsoftware.com/?p=661#comment-1020</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, I have one more reliable data point. I turned 40 since this article was published and I&#039;m still employed. =)  You are probably right though, the time is probably nigh for a revisiting of the information from this article. I&#039;ll put it on the to-do list.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I have one more reliable data point. I turned 40 since this article was published and I&#8217;m still employed. =)  You are probably right though, the time is probably nigh for a revisiting of the information from this article. I&#8217;ll put it on the to-do list.</p>
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		<title>By: Natalie Taylor</title>
		<link>http://improvingsoftware.com/2009/05/19/programmers-before-you-turn-40-get-a-plan-b/#comment-1019</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Natalie Taylor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Apr 2011 21:04:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improvingsoftware.com/?p=661#comment-1019</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hey John - Great post.  Nearly two years have passed.  Did you ever find any reliable metrics ?

Nat]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey John &#8211; Great post.  Nearly two years have passed.  Did you ever find any reliable metrics ?</p>
<p>Nat</p>
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		<title>By: Natalie Taylor</title>
		<link>http://improvingsoftware.com/2009/05/19/programmers-before-you-turn-40-get-a-plan-b/#comment-1018</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Natalie Taylor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Apr 2011 21:03:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improvingsoftware.com/?p=661#comment-1018</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hey John - Great post.  Nearly two years have passed.  Did you ever find any reliable metrics ?

Nat

johnfx, on June 10, 2009 at 9:33 am said:
&quot;That’s a tough question, and metrics like that are hard to come by or validate. If anyone can find any recent data on the attrition rate of programmers that looks reasonably reliable, please let me know and I’ll post a follow-up with fresher sources.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey John &#8211; Great post.  Nearly two years have passed.  Did you ever find any reliable metrics ?</p>
<p>Nat</p>
<p>johnfx, on June 10, 2009 at 9:33 am said:<br />
&#8220;That’s a tough question, and metrics like that are hard to come by or validate. If anyone can find any recent data on the attrition rate of programmers that looks reasonably reliable, please let me know and I’ll post a follow-up with fresher sources.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Larry</title>
		<link>http://improvingsoftware.com/2009/05/19/programmers-before-you-turn-40-get-a-plan-b/#comment-937</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Larry]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:29:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improvingsoftware.com/?p=661#comment-937</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The whole theme of this particular thread of comments reminds me of the rampant egotism that is prevalent, and sometimes even encouraged in software development shops. Someone named Jonathan Edwards has a great blog post about it here: http://alarmingdevelopment.org/?p=422

If I heard talk like this in my workplace, I&#039;d run. Life is difficult enough without people who deliberately make it worse.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The whole theme of this particular thread of comments reminds me of the rampant egotism that is prevalent, and sometimes even encouraged in software development shops. Someone named Jonathan Edwards has a great blog post about it here: <a href="http://alarmingdevelopment.org/?p=422" rel="nofollow">http://alarmingdevelopment.org/?p=422</a></p>
<p>If I heard talk like this in my workplace, I&#8217;d run. Life is difficult enough without people who deliberately make it worse.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://improvingsoftware.com/2009/05/19/programmers-before-you-turn-40-get-a-plan-b/#comment-866</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Dec 2010 11:31:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improvingsoftware.com/?p=661#comment-866</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am here to tell you that burnout in the field is *very* real.  I&#039;m 52 and I&#039;ve been a software engineer in the aerospace field for almost 30 years, and I&#039;m ready to eat a bottle of pills.  Most of my jobs (verification and validation) have gone to India, and having the FAA breath down my neck on most jobs has taken it&#039;s toll.  The trouble is, there are few jobs between the $15 and $50 per hour range.  If I &quot;start over&quot;, I&#039;ll be making jack, and like most people, my investments (especially real estate) have taken a beating.  I don&#039;t have the option of taking a lower paying, less demanding job.  I am actually working graveyard shift because the company won&#039;t buy new computers and desks, so we&#039;re having to double up on facilities!  My field left me...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am here to tell you that burnout in the field is *very* real.  I&#8217;m 52 and I&#8217;ve been a software engineer in the aerospace field for almost 30 years, and I&#8217;m ready to eat a bottle of pills.  Most of my jobs (verification and validation) have gone to India, and having the FAA breath down my neck on most jobs has taken it&#8217;s toll.  The trouble is, there are few jobs between the $15 and $50 per hour range.  If I &#8220;start over&#8221;, I&#8217;ll be making jack, and like most people, my investments (especially real estate) have taken a beating.  I don&#8217;t have the option of taking a lower paying, less demanding job.  I am actually working graveyard shift because the company won&#8217;t buy new computers and desks, so we&#8217;re having to double up on facilities!  My field left me&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Rams</title>
		<link>http://improvingsoftware.com/2009/05/19/programmers-before-you-turn-40-get-a-plan-b/#comment-692</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rams]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jun 2010 17:09:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improvingsoftware.com/?p=661#comment-692</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;The most difficult thing in the world is to know how to do a thing and to watch someone else do it wrong without comment.&quot;
— T.H. White

That quote which you included in your post reminded me of something that I have telling a friend - Working on software projects is like being involved in an accident in slow motion and about which you can do nothing. Ed Yourdon might have been very cynical about the fate of programming, but &quot;The Death March&quot; is a very good way of thinking about most software projects]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The most difficult thing in the world is to know how to do a thing and to watch someone else do it wrong without comment.&#8221;<br />
— T.H. White</p>
<p>That quote which you included in your post reminded me of something that I have telling a friend &#8211; Working on software projects is like being involved in an accident in slow motion and about which you can do nothing. Ed Yourdon might have been very cynical about the fate of programming, but &#8220;The Death March&#8221; is a very good way of thinking about most software projects</p>
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		<title>By: johnfx</title>
		<link>http://improvingsoftware.com/2009/05/19/programmers-before-you-turn-40-get-a-plan-b/#comment-494</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[johnfx]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 21:11:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improvingsoftware.com/?p=661#comment-494</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We have quite a ways to go before we the US falls from the top of the 1st world countries to a 3rd world country. 

Also, why do you think the ultimate goal is to make America, that is already in the catbird seat, stronger at the expense of 2nd and third world countries? I&#039;m not saying that I wouldn&#039;t prefer us to have a thriving economy, but isn&#039;t a better priority to pursue Global well-being than localized prosperity? Especially when it only comes at the expense of letting people who are willing to work hard earn a living and not simply from entitlement programs.

The answer to keeping jobs is to be a more competitive source of labor, not protectionism. That is, strive to demonstrate the value that sets us apart even if we are a bit more expensive.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We have quite a ways to go before we the US falls from the top of the 1st world countries to a 3rd world country. </p>
<p>Also, why do you think the ultimate goal is to make America, that is already in the catbird seat, stronger at the expense of 2nd and third world countries? I&#8217;m not saying that I wouldn&#8217;t prefer us to have a thriving economy, but isn&#8217;t a better priority to pursue Global well-being than localized prosperity? Especially when it only comes at the expense of letting people who are willing to work hard earn a living and not simply from entitlement programs.</p>
<p>The answer to keeping jobs is to be a more competitive source of labor, not protectionism. That is, strive to demonstrate the value that sets us apart even if we are a bit more expensive.</p>
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